 In your most recent bulletin you announce that PMI is hosting three National Conference Calls this fall. This will be a milestone in PMI's history and for the eschatological movement nationwide. When did you first see the necessity of pulling people from around the country and different denominations together?
When I became president of Presence Ministries International in 1997, I had some firm convictions that the religious world in general had a far too limited perspective of God and all that He is doing to bring healing to the nations. I determined that PMI would take a transdenominational approach in everything it does. By transdenominational I mean that everyone, out of respect for the largeness of God, transcend his own particular label and work together in helping the world embrace the presence of the New Jerusalem and the grace of God among us.
Have you seen God honor this step of working across denominations?
Yes, definitely. At our annual seminar this summer, we had speakers as diverse as American Baptist to Episcopal. We could not be more pleased at PMI with the diverse backgrounds of those who have chosen to join with us to build a transdenominational movement that is working to recover humanity's hope.
We are sincere in our desire to join hands with good people regardless of their denominational affiliation. As this message has gotten out, people have come out of the proverbial woodwork to build strategic alliances with PMI, the root ministry of the modern preterist revival movement. Gone is the day that people could say that PMI is only a church of Christ movement.
You mentioned in your journal that PMI began in 1971 with the publication of Max King's book, The Spirit of Prophecy. I still remember getting my hands on that book for the first time. It literally changed my life. Was it hard on your father to blaze a trail for this movement? Please share some of your early memories and give our readers some insight on the man behind the theology.
I was only twelve at the time Max's book first came out. It is easy now, looking back, to say that this was the founding book of the eschatological revolution that will shape the religious revival of the third millennium; but back then, the way forward was not so clear. The publication of The Spirit of Prophecy was not exactly welcomed with open arms. Some of the criticism was even personal. This affected each one of us profoundly. We lost fellowship with many friends, churches and most painfully, flesh and blood relatives. At the time, Max stood alone. Max was Presence Ministries. There was no Kevin Beck, or Terry Hall, et al. There was just Max, his Bible and his firm convictions.
Few people stop to consider this, but at the age of forty, Max had hit his stride in his church affiliation and was in demand as a speaker (one year he had thirteen offers to fill preaching positions). By all rights he had more to lose than many who are in this movement today -- and he indeed did lose it. But he knew that what he gained was far greater. Like the Apostle Paul, he considered every confidence in the flesh a loss compared to the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus as Lord. Nowadays, as I hear others who presently are crying 'foul' against their detractors, I wonder if they realize how much better off they are that they even have a 'movement' to complain to?! But back then, who could Max tell? He faithfully labored alone.
As the founder of the modern preterist movement, how did Max's struggles affect you?
Personally, the worst part is that at the age of twelve, all you know about such matters is that your father can't be right because the whole world disagrees with him -- but he also can't be wrong because he's your dad, the pillar of your entire life ... I was torn apart inside. For years I couldn't even study eschatology without getting physically ill. I didn't want to know -- but I had to know. My own journey was slow, arduous and more painful than most could imagine. I'm certainly pleased to have come out the other end with both an enlarged mind and heart.
What I gained from this was that First Corinthians 13 comes before First Corinthians 15. If we fail to understand the prior, we have no business spending time attempting to understand the latter. It is a lesson that I pray others will come to embrace as well.
At the time I never dreamed that someday the alienation we felt from those who differed with us would be replicated by those basically in agreement with us. There are those who for years have read Max's books, subscribed to our journal, attended our conferences -- only to turn around and write books that are almost verbatim from the writings of Max without ever once citing any of them. I am thinking of a newly released book in particular. Max deserves better than this ... Intellectual larceny never honors God, and has no place in His kingdom.
Many of us who have studied Covenant Eschatology and see the fullness of what God did to restore humanity in Christ have had great hopes that this theology would help bind the church together, but we have seen just the opposite effect. There is much dissension between the different denominational viewpoints which are embracing preterism and that are being brought into this understanding. There have even been some mean-spirited attempts to undermine the message from within the preterist community. Do you think that Covenant Eschatology will ever produce a greater work of true biblical unity?
Great question. First, let me say something on behalf of Presence Ministries. In the words of James, "For all of us make many mistakes. Anyone who makes no mistakes in speaking is perfect, able to keep the whole body in check with a bridle" (James 3:2). We have and will make mistakes in judgment in our writing and speaking? we're just not perfect.
Max wrote The Spirit of Prophecy almost thirty years ago. Even The Cross and Parousia is now some fifteen years old. There are things in both books that he would say differently today. People need to realize this and be a little more forbearing. That being said, we are trying hard to lower the rhetoric and bring all parties together. For the times we have failed in this effort, we apologize. I think the heart of PMI as a ministry is a great one and I am proud to be associated with everyone involved. Together, we steward thirty years of history, which holds great promise for the 21st century church.
Second, I think we really need to reframe this issue of unity on a much broader basis. The issue in my mind is not one of 'unity,' rather, it is one of 'integration.' Let me explain. The entire basis for life is found in the observation of what takes place in a single cell (zygote). If it is healthy, the one cell becomes two, then four, eight, sixteen, thirty-two, sixty-four, etc. However, as the cell divides, it also integrates. Eventually, this cell has turned into millions of integrated cells, all of them perfectly working together -- we call this the human body.
It seems to me that Paul saw the body as having many members, yet the body was one integrated body. Biologically, the many members were made up of millions of cells (we'll call these cells 'personal faith convictions'). If this movement is going to succeed, it will take leadership that is willing to say, Let's not get caught up in the issues which formed modern denominationalism. We'll leave that up to God and the personal faith convictions of each person. We can differ(entiate) and at the same time be highly integrated. This is the beauty of life. If God uses this principle to bind his natural creation together, why not his redemptive work? I believe He does, and this is the only way to build a movement that will change the world.
Even in God's natural creation if a cell differentiates yet fails to integrate, you have a pathology; you have a cancer. Paul is clear about what to do with those constituting a cancer in the body. This is where I draw the line as well. The greatest loss is not in disagreeing, it is in refusing to integrate into the overall effort and mission for the growth of the kingdom. Ephesians 4:3 is pretty clear in saying that we are to make "every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." As long as we seek total theological agreement (uniformity), the billions who do not believe never will believe -- the world is watching and we must not take this lightly.
I firmly believe that Covenant Eschatology will bring about a greater sense of unity, but only through the God-given growth, the integration of the highly differentiated body of Christ. That, after all, is the beauty of life.
Back in the '80s, PMI coined the term "Covenant Eschatology." Please explain this term for our readers. We know that you have felt the term "preterism" now has a limited shelf life.
Covenant Eschatology is about the transition of God's relationship with humanity in and out of sin, and in and out of time. It is the covenant plan born in the mind of God before time began and living in the mind of God beyond time as we know it. All eschatology is tied to God's covenantal working. Once you leave the sphere of the covenant, you have been cut loose from eschatology's theological moorings.
Covenant is to eschatology what gravity is to the earth and humanity. Once you remove it, who knows where you're going to fly off to! I think this is what is happening in the current debate regarding individual versus corporate resurrection. When you step off the path of covenantal transformation, there is no landing place in sight. Covenant is corporate and has many implications for the individual -- but when you reverse this, you are running against the grain of Scripture.
As to the term preterism, it has become simply too loose a term. Any eschatological phrase allowing people to believe that the New Jerusalem is still future is not a term that will cut the mustard in what we are trying to accomplish. We are called to be civilization builders -- not just theologians. The civilizations of tomorrow will build outward from the New Jerusalem at their center. Either the entire paradigm changes or it does not. To have partial this and partial that is not going to build the necessary momentum to bring healing to the nations.
The fact that we have the terms 'partial' versus 'complete' or 'full' preterism proves this point. When the term 'preterist' was first used, there was no such thing as today's "full-preterism." In other words, the term is being stretched from its original meaning and useage. Post A.D. 70, there is no such thing as 'partial' Covenant Eschatology. God's covenantal plan is completely in place. All of it. No exceptions, no confusion. I believe this is a clearer way to approach it.
I have started to use Transmillennialism™ as a term that could stand beside 'pre,' 'a,' and 'post' millennialism. Adherents of Transmillennialism™ or Covenant Eschatology realize that the millennial reign of Christ has trans-formed the Old Covenant and that they are now in the eternal reign of the God --who is all in all (1 Cor. 15:28), and who is now transforming all things. Perhaps the term Transmillennialism™ will catch on because it maintains the word "millennial" as a descriptive term. I think you will see this term used more and more by PMI in our writings and in the national media. I presently am defining this field of applied eschatology as Transmillennialism™ in an article I am writing on "Recovering Humanity's Hope."
Our ministry has chosen to remain independent from any denominational group in order to produce a newsletter which will cross denominational lines. We have been criticized for this on many occasions. Your ministry basically evolved from the "churches of Christ" movement. Even though PMI is now trans-denominational, some detractors have claimed you still promote "baptismal regeneration." How do you respond?
PMI does not promote any single denominational 'distinctive' over and against another. If any of us has a bad heart, it doesn't matter what the issue is, we will use it to harm the kingdom efforts of each other. This was the tragic story of Absalom, David's son (2 Samuel 15). He used people's complaints to gain a personal following to overthrow the reigning King. The next time your readers come across a writing that slams someone (whether PMI or another ministry), they need only to ask, Is this the spirit of Absalom or the spirit of God? The spirit which is from God always has love for others (1 John 3:10). If it is the spirit of Absalom -- get away as fast as you can; "For where there is envy and selfish ambition, there will also be disorder and wickedness of every kind" (James 3:16); and who wants to be associated with that?
Lord, save us all from ourselves, and sowing discord in the family of God.
After attending PMI's Annual Seminar in July '99, we stayed over to attend Parkman Road Church and noted that you are making attempts to have different types of worship to include even unchurched people. Tell us about this ministry.
Since accepting the role of the full-time minister of the church in Warren, I have implemented several changes. First, the message of eschatology is not just found in the Bible, proving its points -- it is found in the application of its truths. In other words, the writing of God moves from head to heart to hand.
As a congregation, we have a community outreach that includes support groups I run for divorce recovery, singles support and grief support. James says that true religion is to watch after the widows and orphans. In other words, true religion is about mending broken relationships. The counseling I offer to the community is free. We want only to bring the sick to the Great Physician.
As a result, our church has begun to offer an informal worship for the unchurched. This service is casual and consists of very practical yet powerful lessons on connecting with God and each other. As we like to say, we aren't much for religion, but we sure love God. Religion divides. God (relationship) unifies. Religion is worried about the externals. Relationship looks only at the inside. Religion has labels that separate. Relationship has but one label -- family.
If we cannot live our eschatology, who cares whether it is right or not? If it does not lead us to a high degree of integration in the midst of massive differentiation, then maybe we have yet to discover the true outcome and intent of Scripture's fulfillment.
When I read some of the rancor produced on the Internet, I wonder when the last time was that the author sat down with the mother of a murdered child, a widowed spouse; the mother of four abandoned by her husband, a pregnant teen who is single and has been thrown out of her family. You just don't live in the trenches and write with a poison pen.
God always has responded to the humble and resisted the proud. He couldn't care less if someone has memorized Scripture in its entirety and has all the answers yet still 'passes by on the other side of the road' of those in need. When will we learn this? What will it take?
The call of PMI is to those who live in the trenches; the call is to those who want to use the next great theological revolution to bring about a social one of love. The world needs God and the message of His fulfilled redemption. Are we going to take it to them or just stand around arguing among ourselves over who is right and who gets the credit? It is time to move. It is time to lead.
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http://www.presence.tv/cms/questinterview.php
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